Interviewee: John Ginter
JOHN GINTER: My name is John Ginter, G-i-n-t-e-r. I was a prisoner in San Quentin in 1967. And after a riot we had there in the first part of 1967, they put me in the Adjustment Center. Well two or three days later, I found myself hearing voices and not being able to figure out what was going on, so I thought that somehow there was something going on behind my cell. So I broke down the stool in the cell and knocked down the back frame of the door in the back of the cell, trying to figure out what was going on.
Well they kept simulating an environment by sound projections. That means I could hear in my frame voices that were trying to make me believe that things were going on around me that actually weren’t going on at all. But they were doing that to, they were trying to instill fear in me, I presume, to either make me commit suicide or try to disorganize my mind. But then I kept figuring out every scenario that they had, changed to a degree, that I can’t think of now what was going on.
And eventually, after about two or three months of this crazy shit, excuse me for saying “shit.” (laughs) Anyway, I figured out that the transmission of energy that was in my brain and the voices I heard were coming from an external force which I believe was in a James Parks, who was the associate warden, that lived up over the hill of the Adjustment Center. So I come to formulate in my mind that the only way they could be doing this to my mind was as if they used a beam of electromagnetic energy that was directed at my aura, or my brainwave.
And so I filed a petition in the federal court. I went through the state court on a habeas corpus. And I constantly wrote to the judge explaining this technology and what was going on. And when my mother come up to visit me, I told her to go to the FBI office and get an FBI agent out there as fast as possible.
Well I finally got interviewed by an FBI agent for about an hour. And he went to interview Dr. Schmidt, who was the head psychiatrist, the head prison psychiatrist, of San Quentin. Well Dr. Schmidt come over to interview me, and told me the name of this device was called M.I.N.D. He classified me after I went before a big panel, a large panel of about 18 different doctors, that I was a paranoid schizophrenic. But he give me the knowledge that this thing was called M.I.N.D. Magnetic Integrated Neuron Duplicator. And he also told me that General Erwin Walker had made the same claim while he was in Springfield under a court order.
And so that stayed in the back of my mind. And I just brought it out here in the last couple of years.
CHERYL WELSH: Could you explain who Erwin Walker is?
GINTER: General Erwin Walker was one of the commanders in Europe that was considered to be fascistic, or even Nazi-orientated. But he was a member of the John Birch Society. And he went to the University of Mississippi to stop the integration of James Meredith into the University of Mississippi. And he was declared to be mentally unstable and put into the Springfield Medical Facility before he was even been diagnosed. I mean, they just diagnosed him that way.
So this technology has been going on. In fact, I read where Operation Pandora started in the ʼ50s.
WELSH: Well don’t forget to mention, just so that they know, Erwin Walker was the one who, can you explain about Oswald and how—
GINTER: Oh, yeah. Well, anyway, Oswald supposedly, before he supposedly shot the president, President Kennedy, Oswald supposedly had taken a shot at Walker. Yeah. But—
WELSH: So, okay. The fact that Erwin Walker was a political case—
GINTER: Yeah. It was definitely a political case. And the same way, now that goes back to my case. I was definitely political. I am, and remain, a staunch anti-Zionist subscriber. And I’ve studied, my world picture, and because of some of my activities in prison, this is the reason why they use, because of my political beliefs.
WELSH: So Erwin Walker claimed that they had brainwashed him in Springfield?
GINTER: Well, according to Dr. Schmidt, he said that General Erwin Walker claimed that he had the same thing going on in his mind, that he was hearing voices, that he had been penetrated by some external force.
WELSH: Okay. And Dr. Schmidt had heard about it and had told you about it, that he knew of this—
GINTER: By the way, that reminds me. Also, Dr. Schmidt was born in Russia. I donʼt know if he was Jewish, but he had a German name. But the doctor that oversaw General Erwin Walker was also born in Russia. But he had a direct Jewish name. So I contend that it was Zionist, or people with Zionist interest, that did use this device on me. Because that was the only, that was the only reason it could possibly be. (coughs) Want to turn it off? [pause]
Cheryl just mentioned the fact that prisoners at that time back in the ‘60s, at Vacaville, especially, were most of the guinea pigs. And Jessica Mitford had written a book called A Kind and Unusual Punishment: The Prison Business. And she pretty well documented the fact that Vacaville had been used for the big pharmaceutical companies, and they had a connection with the military, also. Because most of these men were all military, former military people. In fact, most of the prison guards were former military people.
But getting back to the environment of the ‘60s, the prisoners were looked on as, from the left wing perspective, as both potential for being revolutionary fighters in the war of independence for the Marxist/Leninist type of thinking, like George Jackson.
WELSH: Was George Jackson in prison with you, then?
GINTER: He was, George Jackson was in a cell right next, see, he killed four or five, or he was responsible for killing four or five guards. And he was right next door to me, in the cell next door to me in the Adjustment Center.
But the whole environment of the Bay Area at this time was left, extremely left wing. There was a political correctness there, and the prison system was at a loss to be able to control these outbursts of prison rebellion. Now I was on the extreme right, and I was an anomaly all to myself, because the majority, they had Vacaville in such a way that everybody was getting loaded. They had all the queens that was performing for all the people there, all the convicts. The place was completely loose. And it was a conflict with custody, more or less.
WELSH: You mean the prison guards?
GINTER: Yeah. Right. Right.
WELSH: And what time period was this?
GINTER: This was during the ʼ60s. This was, it started about 1965. In fact, let’s see what, here’s a book that describes the whole incident. It’s called The Rise and Fall of California’s Radical Prison Movement. This will give you the best description of what was going on in prison at that time. Also Jessica Mitford’s books will also give you a good interpretation. You want to turn it off? [pause]
Cheryl wanted me to explain the process of how this thing was working, so that other prisoners will know that they’re being processed, also. The majority of the trauma was in the voices and when they turned up the volume into different parts of the body. They could make me feel that I couldn’t get off the bed, because they could use electromagnetic energy in my stomach. But mostly it was concentrated in my brain. And they knew everything I felt, everything I seen. I couldn’t even go to the bathroom. That’s the ultimate you know? No privacy whatsoever.
The main thrust was to make me believe something that was going on that really wasn’t. In other words, to almost project a hallucination in the mind, to make you think something was going on that really isn’t. But I was always cognizant of what was going on in my mind. I had no far out superstition, so they couldn’t make me believe that say I was hearing from aliens or God or what have you, you know. But this technology is real and it’s been going on since the ‘50s, as I’ve been able to read. And now it’s widespread. It’s all over everywhere. I’m specifically interested in what’s going on in the prison system.
WELSH: How long did they do this to you?
GINTER: They did this to me for about 18 months. But they kept me monitored. And as far as I know, I could be monitored at this time. Maybe there was a period of years there where they took it off me, then they put it back on me. When I started to network with people like Cheryl. But there’s a chance that I’m monitored now. But the only thing that makes me believe that is because I hear funny little things in my ear. Little, sounds like volume shifts in my ear. Frequency modulation in my ear. But that could be anything. So.
WELSH: Could you talk about, did they try to change your political beliefs?
GINTER: Oh, yes. They did that. They tried to make me feel that my political beliefs were too extreme. And they wanted me to read Marxist and Leninist type literature. Which I did do. I even read Exodus and felt emotionally compelled to have a tear or two, because I felt sorry for the Jews. This went on and on and on. And they did establish my thinking toward the radical left. In fact, I even sent a letter to the embassy of the East German government to ask for political asylum over there.
But now I’ve come back full tilt. I’m not afraid of anything. They don’t worry me a bit. I’m going to reveal this thing if it’s the last thing I ever do. And I feel secure in that. And my political beliefs are the same. I still believe that the Jews control this whole country. I know that Deutsch is a Jew, is a Zionist. I know that Madeleine Albright is a Zionist. And they practically tried to destroy that country. And I’m going to (?) that also.
WELSH: Now Deutsch is the head of the CIA?
GINTER: Right. Deutsch is the head of the CIA. He’s a staunch Zionist. All you have to do is read the Spotlight.
WELSH: So can you tell us a little bit about your current networking with current prisoners you mentioned who are—
GINTER: The main prisoner that I get most of my information about what’s going on in prison is David Fratus. He’s in Utah.
WELSH: What types of things do they do to him? To give us an idea.
GINTER: Well, they try to monitor his thinking. They keep him up for days on end.
WELSH: I know you mentioned sleep deprivation.
WELSH: And how long did they—
GINTER: Well, when they first used it on me, they were using it on me for 27 days and nights without any sleep. I couldn’t get any sleep whatsoever. And I was, you know, you just imagine 27 days and nights without any sleep. Well that’s enough to make any normal human being hallucinate on your own.
WELSH: Would you like to talk a little about the, that you felt that they also drove you to commit, try to commit suicide?
GINTER: Oh, yeah. They set up a scenario where they had doctor technicians that were coming into my cell. This is the scenario they set up. Coming into my cell and was going to strap me down and cut off my penis and my testicles. Well it instilled such terror in me that I cut my throat. See the scars there on my throat? And then I went to sleep and I woke up and I found out this had all been a play, a scenario. It had been part of their projections, their sound projections. But it scared the hell out of me at the time. But after that, they quit doing that because I realized they couldn’t scare me anymore. That was the ultimate thing they could do.
Cheryl asked me what I thought their goal was. And I figured that what it was was to scramble my mind, fry my brain. To make me believe something that I wouldn’t hold the value before. And basically what it is is they want to make me less of a threat. Because I was so mad that my basic perception was to go up to the University of California with a machine gun and start blowing them away. But that’s what they were mostly concerned with was trying to pacify me and make me less of a threat.
And another thing I was a threat to, just like right now, I’m a threat because I have that information. I know what the capabilities, and most people don’t know what they have, the technology. Most people don’t know it. I’m a threat in that way. But they wanted to pacify me, basically, is what they did. But they failed. Because I’m going to fight this thing.
WELSH: Well you mentioned, so this technology, this M.I.N.D machine, it’s a computer brain kind of communication device and you mentioned that Erwin Walker had some strong political beliefs.
WELSH: And that you also had some political beliefs. So you believed that the government would—who do you think is behind this project?
GINTER: Well, the people that I feel are directly involved are Procunier, who is the director of the Department of Corrections in ’67-’68, and from the house of associate warden Parks. And also the Dr. Keating and Urbino. Now they are both, Dr. Keating was the head of Vacaville. He was a psychiatrist. And I believe they have military connections, and I believe they got the device from the military under a secret project, under different covert echelons of power structure within the military-industrial complex or the CIA.
WELSH: You also mentioned the University of California at Berkeley.
WELSH: And that you thought that they also may have been involved in the testing?
GINTER: Yeah. Because most of these people that I had come in direct contact with were all professors from the University of California, and/or psychiatric doctors that worked within the prison. Because the prison system was nothing but a big guinea pig farm. All you have to do is start looking at the literature on the ʼ60s and ʼ70s. It’s nothing but a big guinea pig farm! Everything was psychotherapy babble! Psychobabble all the time! Constantly!
WELSH: So in other words, the prison administrations were very concerned about how to control violent prisoners, and were doing a lot of studies along those lines?
GINTER: Oh, sure! Sure they were. Especially Vacaville. But Vacaville they, the main force in Vacaville was to get the prisoners to go along with their experimentation voluntarily. And the only way to get them to do that is to loosen up. Now they would have unlimited access to different kinds of drugs. I mean, drugs that they could get high on, not the experimental kind. And like I say, the cells were always open, so there was unlimited sexual activity. The place was total confusion. I mean, nobody was in order. Nobody was in charge.
WELSH: And would this be under Dr. Keating at Vacaville?
GINTER: Under Dr. Keating, yeah.
WELSH: Right. Who had the philosophy that—
GINTER: He had Menninger’s philosophy. The Dr. Karl Menninger. He was the head theorist on prisoners at the Mayo Clinic, I believe it was the Mayo Clinic, back in Kansas.
WELSH: Okay. So could you talk about the Solano Institute for Medical and Psychiatric Research that Jessica Mitford wrote about in her book, and on the drug experimentation on prisoners?
GINTER: Well I’m not really too much aware, only what I’ve read. And anybody can get the literature if they want to. If they read Kind and Unusual Punishment by Jessica Mitford, they can get the information concerning the extent of the experimentation.
WELSH: I know that you had mentioned that you think that might be a conduit for CIA funding?
GINTER: Yeah, right, because all these doctors were connected. See, Travis Air Force Base is right next to, right next to Vacaville. And most of the personnel came out of Travis Air Force Base. And I think that they’re all, like I said before, I believe that there is different strata of security clearance within these governmental agencies. And some rogue, maybe not rogue, but some organization within the military-industrial complex had these devices.
WELSH: Could you talk about the radiation advisory committee and their findings that have to do with San Quentin? And actually Vacaville, I know you mentioned.
GINTER: Yeah. Well, the only thing I know about that is that it’s mentioned that Dr. James Alex Hamilton that was a psychiatrist that worked under MK Ultra. And he had an office at Vacaville. See, this is just information that you can check on if you do research on this.
WELSH: I know that Dr. Hamilton was mentioned in John Mark’s book. What was the title of that book?
GINTER: That book was [The Search for] The Manchurian Candidate: The CIA and Mind Control [The Secret History of the Behavioral Sciences].
WELSH: And he mentions that—
GINTER: Here’s that book right here.
WELSH: And he mentions the experiments at Vacaville that had CIA funding?
GINTER: Yeah, right.
WELSH: And Dr. Hamilton was involved in the McSearch? Subproject 3. And then I know that you talked about the Radiation Advisory Committee’s final report, and how Dr. James Hamilton was alleged to have conflicting information with the advisory committee. In other words, he was not admitting that the government documents were accurate. Is that right?
GINTER: Yeah. Yeah. He, he wouldn’t admit his, when he was under cross-examination by that committee, he would not admit that he was into this radiation processes. But the radiation processes, it was even in San Quentin as long ago as the ʼ40s. And there’s a research library at the federal building in Oakland, 1301 Clay Street in Oakland.
WELSH: In Oakland. And you can get some copies of the radiation experimentation?
GINTER: Yeah. In prison. In the San Quentin there. Yeah.
WELSH: Oh, okay. So there’s a long history of prison experimentation, in other words. And it would not be a far-fetched idea that the CIA would fund a mind control experiment at San Quentin. I guess that would be the point.
GINTER: No, well San Quentin, being where it is, where it’s located, it’s close to Berkeley and all the different colleges.
WELSH: Well I know that in that final advisory report, just to finish up on this point, they mentioned that Dr. Hamilton had a sleeper lab, where he could do CIA experiments at Vacaville in the ʼ60s.
WELSH: And that just came out in the 1996 Radiation Advisory Committee’s reports. So it would be really likely, as hard as your story may be to believe, if there really is a lot of facts, aren’t there, to support your allegation of mind control experimentation at San Quentin.
GINTER: All right. Cheryl wanted me to emphasize the fact of what I was able to reveal to the outside world, especially in my federal case in San Francisco in 1968. I had an evidential hearing where I wrote to the judge constantly about this device. Also, my mother heard a program called “Miracle of the 21st Century: Miracle of the Mind.” And she sent away for the transcript of that and sent it to the judge. And the judge made a notation in the, yeah. This program was called “Miracle of the Mind” about the, on the 21st century, with Walter Cronkite. And my mother sent it to the judge. The judge read it and put it in my transcript of my court case. And what he come to the conclusion was that it appeared, he said, he used the word “apparently,” because he didn’t know. Apparently you have to use electrodes in the mind. But then that’s what I’ve been trying to prove all this time, that you don’t have to use electrodes. Society already knows that they can use electrodes.
WELSH: So in other words, this show by Walter Cronkite was on the new technology leaks and mind control?
GINTER: Right. In mind, in mind experimentation, yeah.
WELSH: Do you happen to remember any of the people they interviewed?
GINTER: No, I don’t.
GINTER: No, I don’t.
WELSH: Okay. Yeah.
GINTER: But anyway, getting back to that, so all these years I’ve been trying to get information and to fight my case in court. So one of the things I did, I come across a book called Mind Wars [The True Story of Government Research into the Military Potential of Psychic Weapons] by Ron McRae. And he states in there that they don’t need electrodes in your brain, that it can be processed through electromagnetic energy waves.
So then I kept researching and researching and I got in touch with Cheryl Welsh. And she give me the information to really have a strong case in court through her networking. And so here in the last two or three years I’ve been fighting my case in court. And the last decision was that I failed to send a summons to (Lacuneae?) Parks and Kerr that I relied on, they were going to have to use the state as the defense, because they all work for the state, so I didn’t do that. So that’s what I’m waiting on right now, to get an answer--
WELSH: In other words, I’m sorry, but you are filing this as pro se, on your own?
GINTER: Yeah, I’m filing this on my own. But I’m waiting also from an organization back in Washington, DC, that handles cases of a very unique nature, to see if they’ll handle my case. Because I don’t feel qualified, really, to do this by myself. But I’ve been doing it by myself all this time. But I make too many mistakes. I mean, you have to dot the “i” and cross the “t.”
WELSH: That’s so true.
GINTER: Now the most important thing I feel by this phenomena is that how this technology works. I believe that is the most important thing for the general public to know and realize. Because everybody’s threatened. For example, like you take Linda Thompson, now she’s always talking about black helicopters. Now it’s not inconceivable after knowing what I know about this technology, that these black helicopters can come over a residence and send out a beam and tune in on whoever they want to inside the residence. And so they have everything covered. If they have anybody that was, that would be a threat would be automatically tuned in and they would know it. So the most important thing is to realize that all it takes is for them, from their stationary position, they can be in any building. As long as they have you in a radius and know just about where you’re at, they can send out a beam, contact your aura or your brainwave, and it’s just like jumping off into somebody’s brain. And that is the most important thing. Because this, all these religious freaks talking about Jesus is here, look what it’s going to do to this God concept. All these people are playing God. They’re playing God. And they got that technology.
Now we haven’t even mentioned the technology they have in the biological sciences. That’s mind boggling. But this here is out of sight.
WELSH: So what you’re hoping to do and accomplish is to—
GINTER: What I hope to do and accomplish is to reveal this to the general public. Reveal it to the general public. That’s the main focus.
WELSH: That you don’t want this technology to be in the wrong hands, and not to have anyone go through what you experienced.
WELSH: And it was just a real torture experience, wasn’t it?
GINTER: Right. Right.
WELSH: And really changed the direction of your life.
GINTER: Well, it did. In fact, I donʼt know whether I’m a robot. I mean, that’s all possible because I haven’t even got a jaywalking ticket in 20 years. And before that, I was one of the most violent people. So I could be programmed. I donʼt know.
WELSH: You have no indication of that.
GINTER: No, no. No.
WELSH: Yeah. You just know that the technology is so—
GINTER: Maybe some stranger come up to me and just said the word “itsy bitsy boo, you too, too, too” and I’d be all jumping on somebody or shooting somebody or doing something.
WELSH: So you believe a lot, do you believe that the government is experimenting with this equipment on people like you and other prisoners?
GINTER: I believe their main focus right now, I believe that Russia has these devices. I believe that Red China has these devices. I believe they tune in, they’ve got themselves in too much trouble by putting it on high profile people and trying to manipulate their mind. So they concentrated on prisoners where prisoners can’t do anything about it.
But I personally believe, this is just my theory now, but I believe that the technology is so widespread throughout the world right now that when Hillary Clinton went to China, she did that because they let that guy, that dissident go, that they tuned in on her mind. They didn’t play with her mind; they just tuned in. But see, that’s the thing. You don’t know when you’re tuned in if they don’t want you to. They can tune in and you’d never know it. And that’s the playing God part. Because you’ve got no privacy.
WELSH: Right. They can read what they’re thinking, and it could be a real political or intelligence agency weapon, couldn’t it?
GINTER: That’s another thing. They feel threatened by people like us who they call “wavies,” because if this was in the hands of, say, the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, they could tune in on the vice versa and what if they had, what if they had the head of the CIA tuned in? What if they had him tuned in? A foreign body could know everything that’s going on.
WELSH: Right. And I know I’ve read about the allegations that President Nixon was under some kind of mind control. That’s in a book, isn’t it?
GINTER: Oh, yeah. There are stories about even Oswald being a part of this technology. Being programmed. But he was a patsy. I don’t believe that, I believe that the shots come from the grassy knoll.
WELSH: Well basically, could you talk about the Defense News article that was so good?
GINTER: Oh, yeah. The Defense News article, that was one of the first articles that described to a degree this technology. They give a firsthand account of what was going on. And I got a hold of this article from a friend of mine that worked for TRW. And I Xeroxed it and sent it out all over the world, practically. So I know that if not the general population knows about it, I know that the people in power know about it, all the people in power.
WELSH: So in other words, you think it’s a real classified, like the atomic bomb, it’s that kind of technology that will change the world?
GINTER: It will definitely change the world, because there will be no more security. There will be no, how can you lie anymore when they know what you’re thinking? How can there be any secrets? How can there be any, it’s going to cause a complete revolution. A complete sociological revolution throughout the world. And they know that.
WELSH: And so they—
GINTER: And so they keep it secret as much as possible.
WELSH: And so the Defense News article was talking about their Russian technology, wasn’t it?
WELSH: That they had mind control technology and were using it to program their soldiers and were making bilateral agreements with the United States to control the use of this technology. Is that right?
WELSH: Right. So they’re still trying to keep it out of the public sight, aren’t they?
WELSH: Yeah. So.
GINTER: Things that I want to emphasize here is that when they classified me paranoid schizophrenic, they sent me to Vacaville. And they tried, they ordered that I have electroshock therapy. But my mother would not sign the papers.
WELSH: Could you just explain, was that after you had been through the mind control experiment?
GINTER: Right. Right. That was after I’d been through the mind control experiments. And my mother has stuck by me all these years. And she knows. She knows what they did to me. She believes me. One of the biggest traumas you have when you’re dealing with this technology is trying to explain it to somebody else, because they think you’re automatically crazier than a bat out of hell. And only lately, now that I have the evidence, and when I tried to talk about this technology, only now can I present myself on a logical premise, and people believe me. I’ve been fortunate in that way, because everybody I talk to, even the ones who were the most fervent thinking I was crazy believe me now.
WELSH: And how long have you been out of prison?
GINTER: I got out of prison in 1977. And I came here to Sacramento because my mother had moved here to be close to me, where she could commute to Vacaville. My mother and father, my father is dead now, but my mother constantly would come see me, and send me money.
WELSH: So just to get the chronology right, you were on this mind control machine from 1967 to 1968?
GINTER: Yeah. The hardcore part of it, where they tried to destroy my mind so much, is from January of 1967 until about the mid part of 1968. And then they just monitored my mind.
WELSH: And then how much longer after that did they, you said you were presented to a panel of 16 psychiatrists or doctors after the experiment?
GINTER: While the experiments were still going on, they took me over to the Psych Department in front of a panel of all these doctors, and asked me a bunch of screwball questions. And then come up with the idea that I was paranoid schizophrenic.
WELSH: Did you talk about the M.I.N.D device at that time to those—
GINTER: Oh, sure! Every single person I’d come in contact with, the first thing I would relate would be about the M.I.N.D device. That’s the first thing I would relate, because it played such a role in my psyche.
WELSH: So you told this panel of doctors what they were doing to you, and you got no response except that you were a paranoid schizophrenic.
GINTER: Right. Right.
WELSH: I see. And Dr. Schmidt was on that panel?
GINTER: Yeah, he was.
WELSH: Do you happen to remember a couple of the questions that they asked you? The panel?
GINTER: No. They just stared at me like I was some kind of a bug under a microscope.
WELSH: Is that right? Did the try to ask you questions about your past and analyze you?
GINTER: No, no, no. Nothing like that.
WELSH: Nothing about your political views?
WELSH: Nothing, just general—
GINTER: Just general, they wanted to hear what I had to say. And what I had to say was, “Turn the damn thing off.”
WELSH: Oh. So you actually told them—
WELSH: Did you talk about Parks, the Warden Parks and how you thought—
GINTER: Well, the reason I’m pretty confident that Parks played a major role, because his house overlooked the Adjustment Center. And at nighttime, I could see people coming and going from his house. And the reason I use (say?) Parks is because he was part of the Vacaville gang, the gang of behavioral modifiers that wanted to change society. So I’m pretty sure. In fact, I know that if I get him on the stand, he’ll be under oath, and I’ll be able to hit him hard with that.
WELSH: Okay. So you only went before this panel of psychiatrists once. Is that right?
WELSH: And then after the M.I.N.D machine attempted suicide, they turned the machine off, basically, that you know of.
GINTER: They turned the frequency down, but they still had me monitored.
WELSH: Right. They didn’t play any games with you.
GINTER: No. They didn’t play any more games.
GINTER: They didn’t simulate an environment. See, that’s the way they do. If they, see, they know what you’re thinking practically at the same moment you know it yourself. Now if a person has any phobias, or any pet beliefs, they can play on them and create a situation to their liking by your own psychology. By the weaknesses or strengths in your own psychology.
WELSH: And that’s exactly what they did to you then.
WELSH: Okay. Okay. And then do you feel that the shock treatment -- not to present leading questions, but you mentioned this before. I talked to you a lot over a couple of years – you felt that the shock treatment was a way of discrediting you and wiping away your memories?
GINTER: Right. That’s what shock treatment generally does. It disassociates you from your memory.
WELSH: Okay. And then you feel that they actually wanted you to go through shock treatment to erase your memories of the mind—
GINTER: Yeah. Because they still felt that I was a major threat. I still had access to the Ninth Circuit, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. And they felt that I was a threat not only physically, but if I could, because at this time, ’67, you imagine, this is almost 30 years. And this technology is just now becoming foreseeable. At that time, it was completely, nobody knew about it.
WELSH: But it’s interesting that you were aware and able to pick up right away that they were doing, they were experimenting on you.
GINTER: That’s because I know my own mind.
GINTER: And I know that I had a strong, healthy mind. And the only thing, they wanted to destroy me because they didn’t like what I found out, because I read the protocols of the learned elders of Zion.
WELSH: And when was that, that you read that?
WELSH: 1963. And you were into the Nazi beliefs and you were organizing other prisoners.
GINTER: I was more or less, I knew all the prisoners that thought the same way I did. But I was pretty much a loner. At that time, you could do your own time.
WELSH: Well I know that you mentioned a (dual?) vocational institute was where you kind of got a reputation with Dr. Keating.
GINTER: I don’t want to talk about it. When I was in Tracy, Raymond Procunier was the director of the Tracy DVI. And I made the request, because I was getting in so much hassle in Tracy that I be sent back to San Quentin. Well at this time, this was when Reagan won the election from Pat Brown. And I believed that Procunier was appointed, he was just a second-rate stooge in the Department of Corrections. I believe he was appointed because he had top security clearance, was in the military, and knew about this technology. I donʼt think Reagan had any knowledge about what was going on in the prison system whatsoever, because he was just appointed. And his whole spectrum was a sociological one of what was going on in the country generally. But Procunier, being an ex-navy man, was appointed to be director of the whole 24 or 25,000 inmate population of the Dept of Corrections. But I believe because he had knowledge of this device. And he was brought in as a sympathizer with these doctors who wanted to behavioral modificate themselves into oblivion, I guess. But that’s about it on that.
WELSH: Okay. Well would you mind just talking for a few minutes on, just to give the viewer an idea of the social climate around the country, just about the, about the stress program that was run out of San Quentin.
GINTER: It was run out of Vacaville. See, the stress program was set up as a behavioral modifier to control violent prisoners. They wanted to put them under high intensity stress situations. Now they sent me to that program in 1965. That’s where I played bridge with Dr. Keating. They sent me to that program in 1965 and I failed it the first three or four weeks of the program. I couldn’t tolerate them stressing me out.
WELSH: Could you describe just a few of the things that they would put you through as a stress—
GINTER: Well they would have you working in the dining room, and working on line of all the people that come through the dining room. Just interaction, group therapy two or three times a week. And then they would put you on the hot seat and talk about your case in front of everybody. And intricate criticism of your case.
WELSH: Okay and also could you talk a little bit about Governor Reagan, just to give the viewer a perspective. And how in the newspapers there were articles about the proposed violence center that Dr. Louis Jolyn West of CIA fame out of UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute was proposing violence centers so that they could learn to control violence. And, of course, as we know, or as I believe, that they abused this technology and need to be monitored more closely. Could you tell about what happened with that just in your own experience, a little bit more about that?
GINTER: Well, actually, Cheryl, I donʼt know about Jolyn West, because when I was classified paranoid schizophrenic, I was segregated in a predominantly psychopathic environment. S Wing in Vacaville. ITC, mostly all psychotic unit. So I didn’t give information about the other things that were taking place too much in the prison.
WELSH: Well I do know there was enough public protest against that proposal that it was defeated. But the fact that it was close to, where they were discussing it, is a little disturbing, especially after your experience, I think.
WELSH: I just wanted to make that comment. And then I would like to know, I know you’ve shown me articles on the bridge club that took place at the, I donʼt know, I guess that wasn’t part of the stress program.
GINTER: No, that wasn’t part, that was the general. You had to pay so much money to get into the bridge club. And the bridge club was composed of outsiders, mostly from the University of Davis and from the Travis Air Force Base. And Dr. Keating sat in on that all the time. And all these doctors and free people would play bridge with the inmates. And that’s where I made some of my biggest enemies, because I would get in conversations with people’s wives that were there with their husbands, and talk about the Zionist control of the US government. As a result, it got me a lot of enemies.
WELSH: And you also mentioned that, wasn’t there a couple from Davis, one who was an English professor and you would discuss the latest—
GINTER: Oh, that was on the stress program. Mr. Heiss, he was the director of the stress program. His wife was a professor of English literature at Davis. And I would constantly get in arguments with her, with her left leaning philosophy. And this added to the tension, because she wanted to, she wanted to manipulate and control the inmates. Pacify them. That’s their general—you know, like right now, everybody’s on some kind of a pacifier or a tranquilizer or something. And that’s about what they wanted to do is just tranquilize everybody.
WELSH: Well I know you mentioned these different professional people would play bridge with the prisoners. And to give a sense of the social situation at the time, why do you think they had a program like that? Was that what you were talking about earlier?
GINTER: No. I think it was just Dr. Keating’s interest. He was probably a bridge enthusiast and wanted to establish it in the prison. I didn’t know how to play bridge. I picked up a book on it and read it in two or three nights, and started playing. (laughs)
WELSH: Oh, okay. So this was Dr. Keating’s idea.
WELSH: Okay. Okay. And—
GINTER: Is it on? Oh. I feel that if this video is able to show people how this technology works, if anybody has information about it, if they can contact me or Cheryl. Primarily Cheryl, because she’s the network in the bunch here. But my number is 448-4959, if anybody wants to contact me.
WELSH: And your address?
GINTER: 1230 N Street, Apartment 411. Sacramento, California 95814
WELSH: Well thank you very much for putting this video together. I just want to say that I hope any victims out there maybe will recognize the pattern before they, and don’t have to go through what you went through someday—
WELSH: --basically would be my whole point. Thank you very much for your time.